[tex-live] Fwd: Re: tlmgr query

Rowland McDonnell rowland.mcdonnell at btinternet.com
Tue Aug 4 03:06:25 CEST 2009

I did try to keep to technical issues despite the fact that almost all
the replies I've received here have contained personal abuse and

I had meant to make no more posts.

But really, I feel something has to be said about the appallingly rude
behaviour I've met on the tex-live mailing list.

And no, I'm not a bloody troll you idiots (the idea is that anyone who
thinks I'm a troll is an idiot; I say nothing about others at this

I'm doing this because you lot are appalling and someone damned well
ought to tell you.  Maybe someone here will end up feeling ashamed
enough to change his behaviour from `filthy' to `decent and civilised'.

I don't expect any of you to do so - especially not the trouble-making
troll Andreas Hirsch.

Read my posts - it's perfectly obvious that I'm a Mac TeX user who wants
to learn how to manage and maintain TeX on his Mac and is having trouble
due to the user hostility of MacTeX compared to older versions of TeX on
Macs (such as OzTeX and CMacTeX).

That's all.  I don't want personal abuse but it seems that it's what one
gets here.

And this is not me trolling - how could it be trolling?  I'm just
telling you things you need to know.

>quoting Rowland McDonnell, [01.08.2009 05:38 +0100]:
>> What I would like to know is:
>> Why is it that on the tex-live and the TeX on MacOS X mailing lists,
>> I get responses which can truthfully be characterised as mostly
>> hostile and unhelpful?
>this is only your view!

Perhaps you would like to explain how  the replies I've had could
possibly count as `useful'?  Such as, for example, your personally
insulting message here that I'm replying to?

And don't tell me it's not personally insulting of you to suggest that
I've made up all the things I'm complaining about, because it's very
insulting and you know it.

>> I'd also like to know why it seems to be okay for people to post
>> personal insults about me on the tex-live mailing list?
>never read any

Perhaps you should have read a few more of the responses I've had?  In
particular, this response you sent to me that I am replying to now? If
you'd read your own words, you would have read personal insults against
me posted to the tex-live mailing list.

You are guilty of the sort of behaviour you claim does not occur on
tex-live!  In the very message in which you make that claim!

You really are astonishing - you claim that tex-live is free of personal
insults, in a message that's nothing but a personal insult that you
posted to tex-live!

Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing.

> - it's your perception

Of course it's my perception!  What else have I got?  If your
perceptions fails to match mine in this particular case, I must say that
your perception is faulty.

But of course you mean to insult me.  Your implication is that my
perception - because it is *MY* perception, I suppose - is inherently
faulty.  That is a very insulting suggestion to make.

Tell me, what's not personally insulting about the post I've attached at
the end of this one?  Someone turned up with false allegations against
me and posted them on the tex-live mailing list!

And what about Norbert Preining's extreme rudeness to me in all his
unhelpful `explanatory' messages, sneering at my ignorance all the way

Perhaps you've /not/ read all the way through - should I extract
quotations for you?

>> I genuinely would very much like to know - I really cannot understand
>> why it is that I get so much shit from you people.
>aren't you able to realize who's the one here which produces so much 

But you see, I've sent no shit to the tex-live mailing list.  It's only
your perception - but why do you have that perception?

That is the curious puzzle.

>> Rowland
>> (curious because he gets his questions answered very helpfully on
>> comp.text.tex, and he only get abuse *there* from malicious outsiders
>> such as various trolls and the owner of the TeX on MacOS X mailing 
>> list)
>These people which you decry in an absolut intolerable way spend most
>of their spartime to create, manage and support TeXLive.

They create and manage it.  They do not provide support to people like

Virtually none of the replies I've received on this mailing list have
contained /any/ attempt to provide useful answers to my questions.

They have almost all contained personal abuse - seemingly caused by my

Norbert Preining in particular has behaved in a astonishingly unhelpful
fashion, producing long posts that were meant to confuse the hell out of
me in my attempts to find out the information I sought.

I got the information I was after on comp.text.tex, when this mailing
list had refused to give it to me.

>I'm on this list vor years and as I mentioned above your are the one
>who claims such untenable remarks!

So what?  The processes I complain about do occur

The question is: why do I get all this shit?

The answer you have provided: that it's just my imagination; that
response is just more of the typical tex-live mailing list shit that I'm
talking about.

<shrug>  So in your defence of tex-live, you have shown yourself to be
guilty of the problems I'm complaining about.

You're astonishingly rude and insulting and unhelpful - and in that, you
are a typical member of the tex-live mailing list.


====== Forwarded Message ======
Date: 26/7/09 21:25
Received: 26/7/09 19:32 -0000
From: mailinglist at alex-hamann.de (Alex Hamann)
To: texlive at tug.org

Sigh, it is unfortunate to read this whole conversation. After having  
witnessed more or less the same sort of discussion just two years or  
so ago on the TeX on Mac mailing list regarding i-Installer and  
Gerben Wierda's TeX distribution, I find it little entertaining to  
see Mr. McDonnell back in action. Back then we lost some experienced  
people on that list because of the frustration resulting from that  
email exchange. I hope history won't repeat itself.
Of course I am aware, Mr. McDonnell, that you will now insult me  
because I am not providing any technical advice on a technical  
mailing list (as you did back then). Honestly, I do not care and just  
wish you would go back to your OzTeX or the gwTeX that eventually  
seemed to suit your needs and leave all mailing lista alone I happen  
to read.
I simply can not understand why you keep coming back with your  
"technical" questions even though nobody else seems to understand you  
or seems to be willing to address your "basic" problems.  But I am  
sure, this lack of understanding on my side is of no concern to you.
Since you seem to enjoy correcting typos so much why don't you go  
ahead and do that for a while and leave people on this list alone?


Am 26.07.2009 um 19:12 schrieb Rowland McDonnell:

>> Rowland McDonnell wrote:
>>> I wouldn't say that those notes describe anything to anyone who's
>>> not a stone cold expert in TeX system development.  I certainly
>>> can't learn much from it, except that Norbert Preining's done an
>>> awful lot of work
>> There is a detailed article:
>>   http://www.logic.at/people/preining/pubs/at07.pdf
>> read that one.
> I'll read that if I ever manage to find the information I need to
> understand it.
> So far, I've had not much more than insults and hostilty in  
> response to
> my attempts to find out what I need to know to understand the
> documentation that you fully informed experts wrote for other fully
> informed experts.
>>> sorting out a new way of - well, I'm not sure exactly what he's
>>> achieved aside from mis-spelling `Italia' ;-).
>> What is mis-spelled here? I don't see it.
> <http://www.logic.at/staff/preining/talks/guit07.pdf> begins thus:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> TEX Live’s new infrastructure
> Norbert Preining
> Vienna University of Technology, Austria
> guItmeeting 2007
> Pisa, Ialia 13 October 2007
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> If you cannot see an error in the above cut-and-pasted quotation from
> your slide, you should visit first your optician and then perhaps a
> psychologist if it turns out that there is nothing wrong with your  
> eyes.
>> If you are not capable of
>> reading Italian, sorry. I am.
> Me?  The only Italian /I/ can read it the stuff you find on musical
> scores and I've forgotten most of that.  But I know damned well that
> `Italia' has a `t' in it.
> I think it's not languages you need to learn but politeness and  
> perhaps
> a little humility?
>> Click on it and you will see many comments
>> about Italian Language etc.
> I'm sure you are full of arrogance and a certainty in your own
> infalliability.
> [snip]
> Now, if you really don't have anything better to do than snipe and
> snarl, please stop sending me your deliberately insulting and  
> upsetting
> emails.
> Rowland.

====== End Forwarded Message ======

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