From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:13:51 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:13:51 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70E81.2350F2CA@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4193B7E264ADF09F6058250E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------4193B7E264ADF09F6058250E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Mon Feb 22 11:39:23 1999) X-From_: beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu Mon Feb 22 18:03:38 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 677 invoked from network); 22 Feb 1999 18:03:38 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp2.teleport.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 1999 18:03:37 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7K007TZI5PQV@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J81N0VVVA8000KNV@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7K007TII55QV@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA20137 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:05 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00953 for tex-implementors@math.ams.org; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA20005; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:32 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00872; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:30 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Resent-date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:04 -0700 (MST) Resent-from: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: TeX and software packaging Resent-to: tex-implementors@ams.org To: tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Resent-message-id: <199902221803.LAA00953@plot79.math.utah.edu> Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 I've just finished reading a new paper in the USENIX LISA XII proceedings from December 6-11, 1998, available at http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/ It describes a new software binary distribution packaging system, mkpkg, developed at Hewlett-Packard (but available at the above URL) that builds on the lessons and limitations of previous packages on DEC, HP, Redhat GNU/Linux, SGI, Sun, and Windows 95/98/NT systems, with a view to having greater generality and portability. mkpkg has been used to prepare binary distributions of thousands of UNIX packages, including HP's own substantial commercial offerings, plus many shareware packages, including many GNU utilities (like emacs) and importantly, also TeX. The author suggests that for many (smaller) packages, it requires a personal effort of as little as three minutes to prepare a binary distribution. I draw the attention of the readers of this list to this paper, because it singles out TeX as a system whose packaging poses certain problems that could readily be avoided; see particularly paragraph 2, column 2, p. 251 on the paper. Inasmuch as a development freeze for the new TeXLive-4 CD is just five weeks away, there may be a chance to remove these problems. I don't believe that they are very difficult to resolve. Please note that I am NOT proposing that mkpkg be used for the preparation of the TeXLive-4 CD, only that the paper's points be considered prior to its production. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------4193B7E264ADF09F6058250E-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:14:32 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:14:32 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70EAA.919BD4B6@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------74E5461D05210C94C7F35C88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------74E5461D05210C94C7F35C88 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 06:28:17 1999) X-From_: beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu Wed Feb 24 13:25:32 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 1555 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 13:25:31 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp6.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 13:25:31 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00FHLUMACE@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J845VVPNTS000SB0@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00FGZULRCE@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA20689 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:02 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14335 for tex-implementors@math.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA20547; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:17:56 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14201; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:17:55 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Resent-date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST) Resent-from: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:16:00 +0000 (GMT) Resent-to: tex-implementors@ams.org To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Resent-message-id: <199902241325.GAA14335@plot79.math.utah.edu> Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 Sebastian Rahtz asks: >> if you mean the advice to build a distribution on a "clean machine", No, I meant the comment in paragraph 2, column 2, page 251 of `mkpkg: A software packaging tool'' (available from http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/) that says: >> ... I found a few packages (e.g., TeX 3.1415) whose ``make >> install'' processes were so intelligent that the processes would >> install only certain files if they did not already exist. Since >> these files invariably existed on my machine, they were not >> installed during the ``make install'' phase of manifest generation >> and so they were not included in the manifest. The point here is that the install target should always rewrite every file it installs, even if unchanged, not do a check like this: if test -f $(installdir)/filename && cmp filename $(installdir)/filename then true else $(INSTALL) filename $(installdir)/filename fi to avoid replacing a file with an identical copy. A package manager needs to be able to determine which files have been installed by a package, and it cannot do so in the presence of tricks like that. Ideally, the install script should use a copy command that preserves file time stamps: cp -p works on many, but not all systems. rcp -p used to work universally, until some people started disabling it in favor of scp. >> ... >> PS since I have never yet run a TCL/TK application successfully, I >> really have my doubts about trying this one :-} >> ... The Tcl/Tk interface is optional (but often expected by novices who think that computers can only be operating by button pushing): the mkpkg scripts can all be command-line driven. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------74E5461D05210C94C7F35C88-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:16:20 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:16:20 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70F16.B799050F@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AF4261D44FBB6ED8B8714633 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------AF4261D44FBB6ED8B8714633 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 06:28:19 1999) X-From_: beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu Wed Feb 24 13:44:43 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 8611 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 13:44:42 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp5.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 13:44:42 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00F1BVIDCE@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J846KR8BDC000Q58@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00F14VHWCE@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA21104; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:16 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14433; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 Sebastian Rahtz writes: >> I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to >> overwrite the old configuration files, do you? It might have to: otherwise, how do you deal with new options that are in version n that were absent from version n-1. Of course, it could well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to a different name, or to a subdirectory. >> in any case, I still dont see the relevance to TeX Live, since it >> does not have packages or installers of this type. It would be worth checking with the mkpkg author, staelin@hpl.hp.com, to find out exactly which TeX release he was referring to, and to see if he has other comments that might be relevant. TeX is, after all, a very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the capabilities of a package manager. TeXLive, by virtue of largely requiring only the copying of an intact file tree to an empty slot in the local file system, does of course radically reduce the installation problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------AF4261D44FBB6ED8B8714633-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:17:10 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:17:10 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70F48.C62EE6C8@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B227EFD6F790802EA9D8CAFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------B227EFD6F790802EA9D8CAFD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 06:28:19 1999) X-From_: beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu Wed Feb 24 13:44:43 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 8611 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 13:44:42 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp5.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 13:44:42 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00F1BVIDCE@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J846KR8BDC000Q58@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00F14VHWCE@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA21104; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:16 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14433; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 Sebastian Rahtz writes: >> I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to >> overwrite the old configuration files, do you? It might have to: otherwise, how do you deal with new options that are in version n that were absent from version n-1. Of course, it could well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to a different name, or to a subdirectory. >> in any case, I still dont see the relevance to TeX Live, since it >> does not have packages or installers of this type. It would be worth checking with the mkpkg author, staelin@hpl.hp.com, to find out exactly which TeX release he was referring to, and to see if he has other comments that might be relevant. TeX is, after all, a very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the capabilities of a package manager. TeXLive, by virtue of largely requiring only the copying of an intact file tree to an empty slot in the local file system, does of course radically reduce the installation problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------B227EFD6F790802EA9D8CAFD-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:17:33 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:17:33 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70F5E.19F9F6C9@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CCC2E5DFFD78B3F9C0848A11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------CCC2E5DFFD78B3F9C0848A11 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 06:28:21 1999) X-From_: popineau@ese-metz.fr Wed Feb 24 14:02:53 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 18840 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 14:02:52 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp8.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 14:02:52 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00H9ZWCNSN@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8477AJY5C000UZ5@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from esemetz.ese-metz.fr by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00H9VWC5SN@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from NEUROMANCER.ese-metz.fr (neuromancer.ese-metz.fr [193.48.224.95]) by esemetz.ese-metz.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA05769; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:39:36 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100 From: Fabrice POPINEAU Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"'s message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST)" To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.070075 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.75) XEmacs/21.2(beta10) (Boreas) References: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" writes: > It would be worth checking with the mkpkg author, staelin@hpl.hp.com, > to find out exactly which TeX release he was referring to, and to see > if he has other comments that might be relevant. I can't speak for him, but given the context, I would say that his tool would be fine for people installing teTeX. Which is already a large and complex package. > TeX is, after all, a > very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 > ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the > capabilities of a package manager. TeXLive, by virtue of largely > requiring only the copying of an intact file tree to an empty slot in > the local file system, does of course radically reduce the > installation problem. Yes if you want a full install, not quite if you want to allow for package selection. The big problem can't be solved by the package manager only: how do you know which files go whith which other files ? This requires some hand work (Thanks Sebastian !). The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each package on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package have), then it would be possible to make a better use of such tools. -- Fabrice POPINEAU --------------CCC2E5DFFD78B3F9C0848A11-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:17:57 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:17:57 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70F76.1520F2C9@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BED8AA9900CDD8731827CA31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------BED8AA9900CDD8731827CA31 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 06:28:22 1999) X-From_: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Wed Feb 24 14:22:12 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 7887 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 14:22:12 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp7.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 14:22:12 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HR8X8TSN@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J847V8JNEO000QCG@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HR0X8CSN@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id OAA25348; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:12:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:21:19 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:04:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > >> I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to > >> overwrite the old configuration files, do you? > > It might have to: otherwise, how do you deal with new options that are > in version n that were absent from version n-1. Of course, it could > well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to > a different name, or to a subdirectory. its an interesting question. dvips takes the same attitude, I recall, to config.ps. > very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 > ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the > capabilities of a package manager. and thats not all one could have. Werner Lemberg just gave me 40Mbytes of a CJK package to add in :-} of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on this list? sebastian --------------BED8AA9900CDD8731827CA31-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:18:27 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:18:27 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70F94.96861B2A@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8DF8D2FA2960A15110E0823B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------8DF8D2FA2960A15110E0823B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 06:28:23 1999) X-From_: beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu Wed Feb 24 14:26:27 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 19749 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 14:26:27 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp6.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 14:26:27 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HWXXFSSN@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8481DF8IO000V3T@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HWMXFASN@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA21998; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:53 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id HAA14738; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:52 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100 To: Fabrice POPINEAU Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, "Nelson H. F. Beebe" , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 Fabrice Popineau writes: >> The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each >> package on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package >> have), then it would be possible to make a better use of such tools. I heartily agree. I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team, and argued, unsuccessfully, for the inclusion of a Makefile in each LaTeX2e package directory to handle the unpacking and installation. It is a huge pain for me to complete an installation of the new LaTeX-2e release each half year, because I have to compare the old and new trees to figure out which additional packages have been unpacked (at user demand) during the previous six months, and then manually run LaTeX on each associated .ins file (and finding that file can require grepping the package directories to locate which one produced a particular installed file), and manually follow instructions like * To finish the installation you have to move the file * moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX or worse, * The file titles._stq is a faster replacement for the file * titles.sty. * * titles.stq is stripped of documentation and must be renamed * titles.sty before it may be used. While novices may be quite happy to use a LaTeX-2e release without unpacking a single additional package, I work at a large site, with more than 10,000 potential TeX users, of whom more than 250 are currently in our local tex-users mailing list, and some of whom have thousands of TeX-related files, so we find the need for many of the packages that do not come in unpacked form. While for a given release, I could use UNIX tools to build up cross-references of which files are in which packages, and might even be able to make a stab at turning .ins-file text like \Msg{***********************************************************} \Msg{*} \Msg{* To finish the installation you have to move the file} \Msg{* moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX} \Msg{*} \Msg{***********************************************************} into a Makefile command to do the move for some packages, there is a lot of irregularity in these hand-coded \Msg{} instructions that would have been far better expressed as explicit copy commands. Even if they were in the syntax of one particular O/S, they could easily be manipulated into that for another O/S. It would be much better if this work were done before the packages were released to thousands of end users, even if this meant a major delay in the LaTeX2e release the first time around. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------8DF8D2FA2960A15110E0823B-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:18:58 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:18:58 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70FB3.4358F734@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AE08B471F24797A9B94533B2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------AE08B471F24797A9B94533B2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 09:00:52 1999) X-From_: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Wed Feb 24 15:20:12 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 9668 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 15:20:11 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp5.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 15:20:11 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00KTLZXIPJ@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J849W5T2JK000VF1@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00KT9ZX1PJ@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA28491; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:10:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:19:29 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:39:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.3885.850502.556187@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > While for a given release, I could use UNIX tools to build up > cross-references of which files are in which packages, and might even > be able to make a stab at turning .ins-file text like > > \Msg{***********************************************************} > \Msg{*} > \Msg{* To finish the installation you have to move the file} > \Msg{* moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX} > \Msg{*} > \Msg{***********************************************************} > > into a Makefile command to do the move for some packages, there is a ah, I know this so well. maddening, isnt it. I am afraid my personal answer is a Perl script at which I throw a given package, and it attempts to figure out what it has, run .ins files, run .mf to make .tfm, what have you. Then it deals out the results to a TDS tree, builds a manifest file, and inserts the results into the target installation. This way at least I get some consistency, and reliable manifest files. On the downside, - some packages are so screwy that they fall over - some are simply "corrupt" (they dont even have correct checksums!) - I miss some niceties - i have to maintain exception list for various parts of the system still, its been a while since it failed to generate the right TDS tree for a typical package Sebastian --------------AE08B471F24797A9B94533B2-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:19:44 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:19:44 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D70FE1.74FE9548@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5E560DE7470520F8FEEB2BD8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------5E560DE7470520F8FEEB2BD8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 09:01:01 1999) X-From_: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Wed Feb 24 15:43:02 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 25012 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 15:43:01 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp2.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 15:43:01 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O00MF10ZFH2@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84APCTU3K000UV0@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O00MEO0YYH2@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA29666; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:42:29 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:32:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > > this list? > > Yes indeed, as they are packaging points and, dare I say it, rather unixy? no, you may NOT say "rather unixy". lets abandon once and for all the myth that only unix people use installation programs, or software engineering tools. > Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? > that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the > packagers can talk to us about that. Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as easy kiss your hand the long day of "one set of plain files and TeX is the only software we can use" is perhaps closing? did you see the film? the Long Day Closes, I mean? wow. and the director is the spitting image of Phil Taylor Sebastian --------------5E560DE7470520F8FEEB2BD8-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:20:16 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:20:16 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D71001.440308C9@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C980F44C781B1200AD605021 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------C980F44C781B1200AD605021 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 09:01:03 1999) X-From_: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Wed Feb 24 16:31:37 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 25312 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 16:31:36 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp7.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 16:31:36 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O002I738HK9@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84CELHO1S000SRC@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O002HV37XK9@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id QAA02199; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:21:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from screavie.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP) ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:51 +0000 Received: from lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.7]) by screavie.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13676; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: (from srahtz@localhost) by lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29873; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:31 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? > > Well, I would never try to use one anywhere else. I show them to girls to impress them > But if it so easy then please volunteer to set it up. hahahahahahahhahaha > Which variants? What must they look like? > Where would these installation packages go to? pass. ask those people who beg for .rpm files for everything > It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the > requirements should come from them. true. as a distributor, who *I* would like is for LaTeX to be distributed a s a set of TDS trees, please. > PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! that was the polite version of the saying s --------------C980F44C781B1200AD605021-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:20:36 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:20:36 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D71015.89332B1A@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------226E1E54BFE968CEBD7309DD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------226E1E54BFE968CEBD7309DD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 09:10:36 1999) X-From_: ogawa@teleport.com Wed Feb 24 17:01:22 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 29774 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 17:01:13 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp6.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 17:01:13 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004624LXIB@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DFFR6VK000VCM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.teleport.com by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O0045L4LGIB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12101 invoked by uid 5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:00:51 +0000 Received: from 209-142-4-3.stk.inreach.net(209.142.4.3), claiming to be "teleport.com" via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA0C0Mcm; Wed Feb 24 09:00:43 1999 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:10:11 -0800 From: Arthur Ogawa Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Cc: Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Reply-to: ogawa@teleport.com Message-id: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> Organization: TeX Consultants MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > > Fabrice Popineau writes: > > >> The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > >> package on CTAN had his own install script... > > I heartily agree. > > I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team... > ...there is a lot of irregularity in these hand-coded \Msg{} > instructions [in .ins files] This is a discussion I can relate to strongly. As I see it, there are a number of people around whose job it is to prepare a runnable LaTeX installation or install kit for many users. We should talk! Obviously Nelson is one, and Sebastian Rahtz (with TeX Live) is another. I myself prepare a runnable installatio for Textures users, distributed on . I would like to hear from others who perform this sort of task. I agree that reducing the amount of time involved would be a benefit. Of course, under MacOS, the benefit of Makefiles is not available, but that's quite a separate discussion (please). > It would be much better if this work were done before the packages > were released to thousands of end users, even if this meant a major > delay in the LaTeX2e release the first time around. Uh, this particular aspect of the discussion is sure to trigger ire frome Team LaTeX because it levels demands on them. Perhaps a more palatable suggestion might be to create a standard for .ins files so that they contain the information required to create the hypothetical Makefile (this standard to be promulgated by Team LaTeX) and to begin a program of correcting the existing .ins files. With many hands devoted to the task, the legacy material could be resolved (oftentimes by the implementor of that package), and with an existing standard, newly created packages would be done right the first time. To get down to specifics, probably the most commonly required action is to put certain files "where they will be found by LaTeX". Another common action is to deal with .fd files. I'd like to point out that these files, because they are used by macro packages other than LaTeX, must be put "where they can be found by TeX", not to mention that their names are effectively in a flat name space (like .tfm names). Probably one of the more complex builds involves latex.fmt itself. In the process files of several classes are created. Some are LaTeX run-time files, some are required for the \dump of latex.fmt, and still others are documentation files. In my kit, the end user gets all three; in particular I have to create a kit that allows a re\dump (for, e.g., babel users). Note, too, that there is some variation in exactly which files are available directly on CTAN. The AMS package, for instance, is somewhat unusual in that it comes pre-built. I actually like that, myself. What would be the downside of package authors providing fully built packages on CTAN? -- Arthur Ogawa/TeX Consultants voice: +1 209 561-4585 Fax: +1 209 561-4584 mailto:ogawa@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~ogawa ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/ogawa PGP key: finger -l ogawa@teleport.com ________________________________ For the best in (La)TeX-nical typesetting and Web page production join the TeX Users Group (TUG) --- browse at http://www.tug.org --------------226E1E54BFE968CEBD7309DD-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:20:59 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:20:59 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D7102C.BDEA206@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FB3D0F827192C5554688CD34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------FB3D0F827192C5554688CD34 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 09:10:38 1999) X-From_: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Wed Feb 24 17:03:27 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 23961 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 17:03:25 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp8.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 17:03:25 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004BW4PEIB@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DI14WHS000SZM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O004AR4N8IB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:53 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA23616; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:33 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > > > ... > > of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > this list? Yes indeed, as they are packaging points and, dare I say it, rather unixy? Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the packagers can talk to us about that. Chris Rowley --- On behalf of the LaTeX3 Project Team --------------FB3D0F827192C5554688CD34-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:21:17 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:21:17 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D7103E.EB7B2C58@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1DA3B662A8D60FDAD93A7EC4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------1DA3B662A8D60FDAD93A7EC4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 09:10:42 1999) X-From_: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Wed Feb 24 17:04:05 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 10691 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 17:04:04 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp7.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 17:04:04 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004GH4Q2IB@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DI14WHS000SZM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O004AR4N8IB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:30 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23646; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > > Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? Well, I would never try to use one anywhere else. > > > that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the > > packagers can talk to us about that. > Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on > just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could > trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are > computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as > easy kiss your hand Maybe we could. I have no idea what is needed or if we could. But if it so easy then please volunteer to set it up. Which variants? What must they look like? Where would these installation packages go to? It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the requirements should come from them. This does not sound like what Nelson was asking for. Why has no one else ever talked about it? > > the long day of "one set of plain files and TeX is the only software > we can use" is perhaps closing? Who can use? > > did you see the film? the Long Day Closes, I mean? wow. and the > director is the spitting image of Phil Taylor No. chris PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! --------------1DA3B662A8D60FDAD93A7EC4-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:21:35 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:21:35 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D71050.6C5B773@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------32B6A2921A13ADDF3577E9BE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------32B6A2921A13ADDF3577E9BE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 09:10:51 1999) X-From_: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Wed Feb 24 17:05:37 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 2122 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 17:05:35 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp6.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 17:05:35 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004LH4QQIB@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DI14WHS000SZM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O004AR4N8IB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:19 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23690; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.11176.435404.883281@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > > It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the > > requirements should come from them. > true. as a distributor, who *I* would like is for LaTeX to be > distributed a s a set of TDS trees, please. It is --- by the good offices of that munificent benefactor Herr Doktor Esser. But that would not be useful to Nelson, would it? > > > PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! > that was the polite version of the saying As opposed to "hand biting"? chris --------------32B6A2921A13ADDF3577E9BE-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:22:04 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:22:04 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D7106C.E2D2EFE@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E4AE9FE90AC77AF1055241D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------E4AE9FE90AC77AF1055241D2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 12:32:59 1999) X-From_: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Wed Feb 24 19:13:19 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 27885 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 19:13:17 -0000 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (137.108.143.2) by smtp8.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 19:13:17 -0000 Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:39 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA23739; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:25 GMT From: Chris Rowley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:24 +0000 (GMT) To: ogawa@teleport.com Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" , Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> References: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14036.12764.995452.535814@fell.open.ac.uk> Arthur Ogawa wrote -- > Uh, this particular aspect of the discussion is sure to trigger ire > from Team LaTeX because it levels demands on them. Not ire, just weary sighs:-). At least I can understand Art's unprejudiced analysis of the problem! And the suggestion that perhaps there is not a simple solution and that this work could be done by others as well as us ... or is that just a silly delusion of mine? chris --------------E4AE9FE90AC77AF1055241D2-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:22:20 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:22:20 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D7107D.C36E2424@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0F852DED070E547B9174881B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------0F852DED070E547B9174881B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Feb 24 17:18:34 1999) X-From_: schrod@npc.de Thu Feb 25 01:12:30 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 10185 invoked from network); 25 Feb 1999 01:12:28 -0000 Received: from mail.omnilink.net (194.64.25.6) by smtp8.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 1999 01:12:28 -0000 Received: from gazette.omnilink.net (gazette.omnilink.net [194.64.25.22]) by mail.omnilink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA27168 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:11:40 +0100 (MET) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gazette.omnilink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id CAA26703 for ogawa@teleport.com; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:11:40 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from schrod@npc.de) Received: from baghira.npc.de (baghira.npc.de [195.20.66.162]) by npc.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA04896 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:40:28 +0100 Received: (from schrod@localhost) by baghira.npc.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA01782; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:47:18 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14036.22341.829910.545153@baghira.npc.de> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:47:17 +0100 (MET) From: Joachim Schrod To: ogawa@teleport.com Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> References: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.67 under 19.15p5 XEmacs Lucid >>>>> "AO" == Arthur Ogawa writes: AO> Perhaps a more palatable suggestion might be to create a standard AO> for .ins files so that they contain the information required to AO> create the hypothetical Makefile (this standard to be promulgated AO> by Team LaTeX) and to begin a program of correcting the existing AO> .ins files. Not all packages are written with docstrip, and not all have those so-called `standard .ins' files. The .ins file therefore needs additional clauses that can be used to specify installation of available files, i.e., it would not be `standard' any more. This information can be used to create the Makefile. OTOH, Chris is right with bitching -- not factually (he should look outside of his Unix box to find make...) but from an organizational point of view. Somebody step forward and make available a Perl-based installation system where only a small configuration file is needed to specify an automatic installation; just like Makefile.PL in Perl modules. I'll bet it would be used, with the wide availability of Perl nowadays. Just do it. Joachim PS: Chris, please stay away with on Unix centricity concerning Perl. MS distributes Perl officially, no major UNIX(tm) vendor does. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@npc.de Net & Publication Consultance GmbH Tel.: +49-6074-861530 Roedermark, Germany Fax: +49-6074-861531 --------------0F852DED070E547B9174881B-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:22:38 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:22:38 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D7108E.32C99F38@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A52C7E670405EA6EBFBF5D7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------A52C7E670405EA6EBFBF5D7B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Thu Feb 25 08:36:15 1999) X-From_: eagle@windlord.stanford.edu Thu Feb 25 03:54:35 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 21808 invoked from network); 25 Feb 1999 03:54:34 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp5.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 1999 03:54:34 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O002HSYUSFG@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8509FRGZ4000SVK@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O002HOYUCFG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 887 invoked by uid 50); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:54:10 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:54:10 -0800 From: Russ Allbery Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: Fabrice POPINEAU's message of "24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100" To: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 References: Fabrice POPINEAU writes: > The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those > 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each package > on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package have), then it > would be possible to make a better use of such tools. If and only if all of those install scripts were essentially the same and functioned in the same fashion. Quite a few packages on CTAN do have install scripts, namely lots of weirdly incompatible and usually not fully functional variations on make install. The advantage that Perl has here is that pretty much everyone who writes a Perl module just uses ExtUtils::MakeMaker and a standard Makefile.PL, since that functionality is part of Perl. As TeX itself contains no file installation tools as part of its core functionality, it's probably unlikely that CTAN will be able to achieve similar standardization. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) --------------A52C7E670405EA6EBFBF5D7B-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:22:59 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:22:59 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D710A3.8AF1C0C6@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------02BF5D756660E660DD3939AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------02BF5D756660E660DD3939AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Thu Feb 25 08:36:17 1999) X-From_: olaf@infovore.xs4all.nl Thu Feb 25 04:36:01 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 25299 invoked from network); 25 Feb 1999 04:36:00 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp7.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 1999 04:36:00 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7P002VO0RTFG@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J851OTHBFK000ZB4@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7P002VJ0RDFG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from infovore (root@infovore.xs4all.nl [194.109.13.254]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26374 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:35:36 +0100 (CET) Received: by infovore id m10FlLi-000cklC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:56:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:56:03 +0100 From: Olaf Weber Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"'s message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST)" To: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <87aey3frmk.fsf@infovore.xs4all.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII References: Nelson H F Beebe writes: > No, I meant the comment in paragraph 2, column 2, page 251 of `mkpkg: > A software packaging tool'' (available from > http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/) that says: >>> ... I found a few packages (e.g., TeX 3.1415) whose ``make >>> install'' processes were so intelligent that the processes would >>> install only certain files if they did not already exist. Since >>> these files invariably existed on my machine, they were not >>> installed during the ``make install'' phase of manifest generation >>> and so they were not included in the manifest. > The point here is that the install target should always rewrite every > file it installs, even if unchanged, not do a check like this: > if test -f $(installdir)/filename && cmp filename $(installdir)/filename > then > true > else > $(INSTALL) filename $(installdir)/filename > fi > to avoid replacing a file with an identical copy. A package manager > needs to be able to determine which files have been installed by a > package, and it cannot do so in the presence of tricks like that. Actually, the offending code looks like this: if grep 'original mktexpk --' $(scriptdir)/mktexpk >/dev/null 2>&1\ || test ! -r $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; then \ $(INSTALL_SCRIPT) $(srcdir)/mktexpk $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; \ else true; fi As you can see, it is meant to prevent overwriting modified copies. It is not unusual for scripts like mktexpk to be rewritten to a lesser or greater extent, and just dumping the new one over the one would arouse the ire of the installer. One supposes that this could be rewritten like this, say: if grep 'original mktexpk --' $(scriptdir)/mktexpk >/dev/null 2>&1\ || test ! -r $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; then \ mv $(scriptdir)/mktexpk $(scriptdir)/mktexpk.O; \ $(INSTALL_SCRIPT) $(srcdir)/mktexpk $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; \ else true; fi so that a modified version is retained, and changes made to it can be merged with the newer version. -- Olaf Weber Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are quick to anger and have no need for subtlety. --------------02BF5D756660E660DD3939AA-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:23:14 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:23:14 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D710B3.D39AF850@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2DC58EBFA61DEF4782155DB7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------2DC58EBFA61DEF4782155DB7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Thu Feb 25 08:37:13 1999) X-From_: popineau@ese-metz.fr Thu Feb 25 12:36:11 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 10613 invoked from network); 25 Feb 1999 12:36:10 -0000 Received: from esemetz.ese-metz.fr (193.48.224.212) by smtp5.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 1999 12:36:10 -0000 Received: from NEUROMANCER.ese-metz.fr (neuromancer.ese-metz.fr [193.48.224.95]) by esemetz.ese-metz.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA10655; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:09:55 +0100 To: ogawa@teleport.com Cc: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging References: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Fabrice POPINEAU Date: 25 Feb 1999 13:39:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: Arthur Ogawa's message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:10:11 -0800" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070075 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.75) XEmacs/21.2(beta10) (Boreas) Arthur Ogawa writes: > Perhaps a more palatable suggestion might be to create a standard for .ins > files so that they contain the information required to create the hypothetical > Makefile (this standard to be promulgated by Team LaTeX) and to begin a > program of correcting the existing .ins files. CAB files are used under Windows for downloading components from the web. Microsoft quoted : The CAB is inspected to see if it contains an OSD file first. OSD files are basically Extensible Markup Language (XML) files with OSD vocabulary. The OSD specification is located at http://www.microsoft.com/standards/osd/ This should be compatible with a LaTeX description of the package itself. -- Fabrice POPINEAU --------------2DC58EBFA61DEF4782155DB7-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:23:35 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:23:35 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D710C7.C6C2BFF5@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6B72828520BE35FFD175AED8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------6B72828520BE35FFD175AED8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Feb 26 09:31:24 1999) X-From_: wolinski@mimuw.edu.pl Fri Feb 26 16:59:15 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 5582 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1999 16:59:14 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp7.teleport.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 16:59:14 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7R00AALTUGJG@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J875XIWA2O00129W@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from melkor.mimuw.edu.pl by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7R00AAHTTNJG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14111 invoked by uid 3893); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:00:14 +0000 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:00:14 +0100 (MET) From: Marcin Wolinski Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Cc: Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team, and > argued, unsuccessfully, for the inclusion of a Makefile in each > LaTeX2e package directory to handle the unpacking and installation. > > It is a huge pain for me to complete an installation of the new > LaTeX-2e release each half year, because I have to compare the old and > new trees to figure out which additional packages have been unpacked > (at user demand) during the previous six months, and then manually run > LaTeX on each associated .ins file (and finding that file can require > grepping the package directories to locate which one produced a > particular installed file), and manually follow instructions like > > * To finish the installation you have to move the file > * moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX Starting from December 1995 DOCSTRIP can put generated files in user-specified directories. This is documented in docstrip.dtx (unfortunately the text was written by me, so it's only a kind of English). All .ins files in LaTeX `base' and `tools' parts contain \usedir{...} commands, and so by creating a two line docstrip.cfg one can cause DOCSTRIP to put files in appropriate directories ``where TeX can find them''. Unfortunately this is not true for packages from other sources. Moreover it's only a partial solution since it is not possible to create a new directory from within TeX. Marcin --------------6B72828520BE35FFD175AED8-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:23:53 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:23:53 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D710D9.E6334A97@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------46C50C6E1D11309B4A8B9AFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------46C50C6E1D11309B4A8B9AFC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Feb 26 12:16:10 1999) X-From_: te@informatik.uni-hannover.de Fri Feb 26 20:05:45 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 28738 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1999 20:05:43 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp7.teleport.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 20:05:43 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I5M2HC21@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG28VMO0014ZS@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:08 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30625; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:53:03 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:53:03 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261853.TAA30625@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? 1) make is not available everywhere 2) you can't be sure which commands you can call 3) you don't know which command interpreter executes the commands My suggestion is that the TeX implementation should define its capabilities and paths in some file that TeX reads when you do the equivalent command (whatever this will be) of perl Makefile.PL The authors of perl modules follow the guidelines of writing a Makefile.PL suitable for the installation of their package. I don't see why authors of TeX packages should not be able to do something similar. Really, we need a framework. Then, I am sure that new packages will adopt this. Thomas --------------46C50C6E1D11309B4A8B9AFC-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:24:08 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:24:08 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D710E8.196C2791@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6324DEC3ACA636B75A76580F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------6324DEC3ACA636B75A76580F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Feb 26 12:16:12 1999) X-From_: te@informatik.uni-hannover.de Fri Feb 26 20:07:55 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 15582 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1999 20:07:55 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp6.teleport.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 20:07:55 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I5M2HC21@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG1KE2O00147B@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:06 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30621; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:45:21 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:45:21 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261845.TAA30621@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > I heartily agree. I agree, too. We can't write the necessary support files needed to get automatic installation for every existing package on CTAN, but we can try to find some kind of framework which the package writers might adopt. I think that, we can learn from the perl modules. Some command like tex install could read some install.tex (provided by the package author) plus some config file that the installed system has to provide. The result could be some shell script, Makefile or batch file that the system can process. The config file of the distribution would have all the system dependencies (paths, names for tools, name and format of the output file, ...). The install.tex file would have all the package dependant settings (names of files to be installed into which *logical* location, etc. ...) Hey, if perl can write a Makefile (matching exactly the configuration of the installed perl interpreter), TeX will surely be able to do something similar. Should we start a project for this? Who would be willing to join the discussion or even suggest some implementation? I don't think that we should discuss everything here... Thomas --------------6324DEC3ACA636B75A76580F-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:24:29 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:24:29 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D710FD.A324F651@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------941D88B32DCFF6D703324641 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------941D88B32DCFF6D703324641 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail1 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Feb 26 12:16:22 1999) X-From_: te@informatik.uni-hannover.de Fri Feb 26 20:07:55 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 15583 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1999 20:07:55 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp6.teleport.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 20:07:55 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I6S2HF21@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG05I6O0014ZP@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:01 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30676; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: ogawa@teleport.com Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261911.UAA30676@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > > >> package on CTAN had his own install script... I don't think that we can find some kind of install script which will run everywhere. My idea is that the installation procedure should be described in a logical way allowing some program (e.g. tex) to generate something suitable for the given TeX installation. > As I see it, there are a number of people around whose job it is to prepare a > runnable LaTeX installation or install kit for many users. We should talk! > > Obviously Nelson is one, and Sebastian Rahtz (with TeX Live) is another. I > myself prepare a runnable installatio for Textures users, distributed on > . I would > like to hear from others who perform this sort of task. Hi, I happen do do such things, too (teTeX) :-) Thomas --------------941D88B32DCFF6D703324641-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:24:53 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:24:53 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D71115.B6241263@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------02B9FBA661A9BBAB7B60DD46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------02B9FBA661A9BBAB7B60DD46 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Feb 26 12:48:08 1999) X-From_: te@informatik.uni-hannover.de Fri Feb 26 20:19:59 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 21563 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1999 20:19:56 -0000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (130.44.1.6) by smtp2.teleport.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 20:19:56 -0000 Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I4O2H421@sun06.ams.org> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG0UGPC0016KM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for ogawa@teleport.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:03 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30590; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:33:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:33:32 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261833.TAA30590@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > this list? teTeX comes with a src and a texmf tree. The texmf tree is complete except for format/mem/base files which will be installed by "make install". So, one cannot miss a file. The list of files for the package can be generated by the filenames of the files in the texmf archive + the files which are installed during "make install". Thomas --------------02B9FBA661A9BBAB7B60DD46-- From ogawa@teleport.com Fri Feb 26 21:25:10 1999 From: ogawa@teleport.com (Arthur Ogawa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:25:10 -0800 Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: <36D71126.1D860420@teleport.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------960FCD217617783D8D6DC245 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------960FCD217617783D8D6DC245 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by mail2 (mbox ogawa) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Feb 26 12:48:10 1999) X-From_: te@informatik.uni-hannover.de Fri Feb 26 20:30:21 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ogawa@teleport.com Received: (qmail 10511 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1999 20:30:20 -0000 Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de (root@130.75.2.3) by smtp5.teleport.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 20:30:20 -0000 Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:01 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30676; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Message-Id: <199902261911.UAA30676@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: ogawa@teleport.com Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org > > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > > >> package on CTAN had his own install script... I don't think that we can find some kind of install script which will run everywhere. My idea is that the installation procedure should be described in a logical way allowing some program (e.g. tex) to generate something suitable for the given TeX installation. > As I see it, there are a number of people around whose job it is to prepare a > runnable LaTeX installation or install kit for many users. We should talk! > > Obviously Nelson is one, and Sebastian Rahtz (with TeX Live) is another. I > myself prepare a runnable installatio for Textures users, distributed on > . I would > like to hear from others who perform this sort of task. Hi, I happen do do such things, too (teTeX) :-) Thomas --------------960FCD217617783D8D6DC245-- From mackay@cs.washington.edu Sat Feb 27 00:41:17 1999 From: mackay@cs.washington.edu (Pierre MacKay) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:41:17 -0800 Subject: Observations on packaging Message-ID: <199902270041.QAA14399@june.cs.washington.edu> Since packaging seems to be being discussed seriously at last, I shall, rather warily, add some observations from experience. I put a horrendously oversized TeX package on the Sunsite archive some years ago, and it seems to have worked well, despite a minor goof-up in the dialog with the installer. Since then I have made ibycus Greek up into packages and, even though many of the people who have taken on ibycus4 do not have the luxury of the pkgadd command, they appear to have found the guidance useful. I don't want to seem as if I am suggesting that the Solaris realization of SVR4 packaging is the only, or even the best, way to go, but it works, and it works because of some files which are not part of any given package, but are rather generated by the installation of a package. These are what make it possible to uninstall as well as to install, and if any energy is to be expended on packaging it will be important to be aware of them. In a directory somewhere (it happens to be /var/sadm/pkg on my system) there are subdirectories for every package. Each subdirectory, for instance: /var/sadm/pkg/MAGMAsp has beneath it install/ and save/, and the file pkginfo. ./save/ is usually empty, unless you are prepared to be really profligate in retaining multiple previous versions of a package, but you need it for uninstalling if you are nervous about the new version of a package. ./install/ contains the copyright, and various files such as preinstall (what had to be done before dropping the package into the system) postinstall (guess) preremove (what has to be done before uninstalling the current version) request (dialog with the installer) These have to be shifted into ./save/, of course, if you want to revert to an older version of the package. There is also a humongous text file which on my system is /var/sadm/install/contents. This gives the contents of the package map for each package, and provides the detail for the removal of packages along with many other things. Directory tree names are sorted on a simple alphanumeric basis through the entire file. It is also possible to see which packages have contributed to which trees. Regular files have bytecounts, checksums and datestamps. Here is a small fragment: /etc/rc2.d d none 0775 root sys SUNWcsr SUNWadmr SUNWatfsr SUNWdtlog \ SUNWntpr SUNWpcr SUNWpmr SUNWpsr SUNWsacom SUNWvolr SUNWbnur SUNWapppr /etc/rc2.d/K20spc=../init.d/spc s none SUNWpcr /etc/rc2.d/K60nfs.server=../../etc/init.d/nfs.server l none SUNWcsr /etc/rc2.d/K76snmpdx=../init.d/init.snmpdx l none SUNWsacom /etc/rc2.d/K77dmi=../init.d/init.dmi l none SUNWsacom /etc/rc2.d/README f none 0644 root sys 1369 57833 869026951 SUNWcsr = is an indication of a link, either hard `l` or symbolic 's'. Linux RPM probably has all this stuff, but I have no direct experience of Linux yet. You miss a great deal of the virtue of packaging if you leave it out. In the absence of a regular contents file a TeX packaging environment could set up one specifically for TeX. Patches work with the same packaging, incidentally. They usually offer to save the previous version, and I, for one, nearly always do. I can always blow it away once the patch has proved itself. The point is, then, that packaging is great stuff, but it involves more than just the contents of the package if you want to get the real value out of it. Email: mackay@cs.washington.edu Pierre A. MacKay Smail: Department of Classics Emeritus Druid for 218 Denny Hall, Box 353110 Unix-flavored TeX University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 (206) 543-2268 (Message recorder)